My Experiences with Options Trading Education

[chinigun]

I am writing this thread to share with you all my experiences with the different trading education companies out there and to give my "personal" opinion. I stress that this is my personal opinion only and others may have a different view! Please feel free to share your own opinions in this thread!

Optionetics

This is the company that first got me into options trading. As such I will be forever grateful for getting that start else I would not be here. I started with them back in 2004 and since that time I have done the various seminars and purchased the software below:

Seminars (average cost $3.5K)

Basic 2-day seminar

Interactive Computer Trading (ICT)

Master's Interactive Computer Trading (MICT)

Interactive Technical Trading (ITT)

Advanced Strategies Seminar

Oasis 2007 (Annual 3-day super investor conference held in Santa Clara, CA)

Oasis 2008

Software Purchased (average price $3.5K except for platinum which is around $1K a year)

Platinum (subscription based options analysis software)

Advanced Get (original Elliot Wave software)

Profitsource (new Elliot Wave software with System builder and testing - high level)

Option Gear (options analysis software)

Value Gain (fundamental scanning software - can be used in conjunction with Profitsource)

Other Optionetic products purchased

CD strategy club (CD's showing different option strategies in a flash format)

Wave finder publication (weekly newsletter devoted to technical analysis of the Dow and Nasdaq)

Channel Trader publication (weekly newsletter devoted to finding delta neutral type trades written by full time traders/instructors ie time spreads, straddles, iron condors)

Directional Trader publication (weekly newsletter devoted to finding directional (delta) type trades written by full time traders/instructors ie verticals, naked long options etc etc.

Books

Options Course and Volatility Course by George and Tom.

Other courses I've done that are affiliated with Optionetics are:

Foreign Currency Trading Education (FXTE) beginners course and Intermediate Online Seminar.
Also subscribe to the FXTE news trader publication (gives trade recommendations based on the outcome of economic data that have big affects on FX)

Best features - The 2-day course is a good primer course into options trading and trading in general. Enough marketing and hype to really whet a beginner's appetite about trading. Some very good presenters/instructors, some of whom come from very experienced trading backgrounds (former floor traders including Scott Kramer who was a trader with O'Connor and Associates - the premier derivatives trading firm in the world based in Chicago before they were bought out by UBS - you can read more about O'Connor through the book, The Predictors - just google it). Platinum is a very good options analysis software package with many types of scans and other features and is good value when compared to the price of OptionVue. The weekly publications are also good value just to see how more experienced traders trade as they provide weekly updates and adjustments on the trades. The annaul Oasis event is also good value as you will get exposed to a lot of different traders and their presentations and is relatively cheap ($700). Also has a free and massive discussion board where you can ask the instructors questions. However, most of the content is pretty superficial stuff. The instructors will never give away things that they can't sell to you in another seminar.

Worst features - Pricey seminars and a lot of up-selling. You will literally spend in the tens of thousands learning to trade and may still not be a successful trader. Also their trading methods are heavily software dependent. ie If you don't buy the software you can't trade the way they teach you in the seminars. Also the content of what you are getting in most of the seminars whilst valuable is probably nowhere near as insightful as some other resources especially if you know where to look (ie this forum for example). This is why most people that attend the basic 2-day will fail (around 96%) as they will literally be bombarded with new seminars to go to and new products (software etc etc) whilst only giving you enough to survive to get to the next course. It's like you are forever been dangled the carrot in front of you. ie For unprofitable traders, you are left feeling that by buying the newest piece of software it just might make you profitable. I have a friend who is now an instructor with them and he has told me that they do have certain sales quotas they must try to meet.

Overall - Biggest option trading company out there and they do the best job at marketing and getting people into trading and have probably done wonders for improving the overall education of people out there but you will pay through the nose to get your trading education. Still there are quite a few people who have gone from student to full time traders (but we are talking 50 or so out of the 300K that have done the basic 2-day course).


Randomwalktrading.com

I've done the following seminars and got following books/products:

Seminars (average cost $3K)


Level 1 seminar (now called Essentials Course) They have now recorded this seminar on DVD and it comes with a manual. Course goes through vertical spreads, 3 legged box, portfolio management, iron cockroach (unbalanced condor), 5 year millionaire method etc etc.

Options Professional Course (also a DVD and book package) - I just recently bought this for $1500. This course is dedicated to teaching you the must know floor trader type knowledge ie Option greeks, synthetics, jelly rolls, boxes, conversions, reversals, program trading, put and call early exercise, pin risk etc etc.

Books


One Strategy (a book dedicated to the Broken Wing Butterfly)


Collars, Stock and Options (a book dedicated to teaching the dynamically hedged collar)


Time Spreads (as the name suggests)


Option Greeks

Best features - The practicality and insightful content in all of the courses. They really have broken down options trading into really easy to understand material that even a beginner can grasp. Also they leave nothing out ie they don't upsell more information in another course etc etc. Some of the little known techniques that I've learnt from them have made me thousands because they are stuff that only the successful floor traders know about. My essentials course was taught by an ex OEX floor trader with over 20 years in the pit who now runs a hedge fund. 90% of the instructors/writers are successful and ex floor traders which is why the content is full of the good stuff (ie rolling strikes to predict what a spread might be worth, when to expect early exercise of puts/calls etc etc). Also their methods are not software dependent. If you want to trade the way floor traders do then this is the course for you. Their methods are based more on probability ie expected move etc etc and what worked on the floor (ratio spreads etc etc).

Worst features - I can't get enough of their educational material. That's their problem. They don't leave anything out so they can only come up with 2 seminars and 4 books.

Overall - Great value for money and top customer service. I have nothing but the highest praise. The content in the books are also very, very practical.

Options University

I've got the following packages:


Options Mastery Course (by Ron Ianieri) This is a very detailed options trading course in a CD format watched on the computer. It cost me $1K.


2007 Options Intensive Workshop Package with DVD and notes (cost $700)


2nd Annual Online Trading and Investors Superconference Course with DVD and notes (cost $500)

Best features - The Mastery Course is a great intro to options and is very detailed including going through the various pricing models and their advantages and disadvantages! Good in depth explanations about the theory etc etc and good value for money. The DVD packages also offer a wide range of speakers (ie Tom Sosnoff, Price Headley, A Elder, Steve Nison etc etc)

Worst - Once subscribed to the website, they can be a bit markety with quite a few emails each week.

Overall - I would highly recommend the Mastery Course for someone that is wanting to get a very good foundation in options for relatively cheap price.

[chinigun]

Dan Sheridan Mentoring
1 year mentoring with Dan Sheridan. Cost is 6K. You can go to the website to get a more detailed look at what the program offers but you basically get a trading manual and syllabus plus a massive archive of webex sessions with other traders, and the whole mentoring thing for one year. You also get access to the Sheridan forums and get to network with other traders. Best thing about the program is that you can be a fly on the wall and watch all of Dan's mentoring sessions with other students for life. A lot of students take up this opportunity and so you will so like 50 or so traders sitting in on a one on one session. The neat thing with something like that is Dan is able to take polls and go through trades that worked and didn't work etc etc and everyone is able to learn off each other ranging from the more experienced traders (there are quite a few trading 300K plus accounts and even ones trading in excess of a mil)

I haven't really started my mentoring (I begin in November) so at this stage the best features for me is the lifetime membership of Dan's trading community and the ability to jump in and watch any mentoring session. Also the manual is very comprehensive and you have recommended list of instruments with which to trade the various strategies. I don't really have any negative to say at this stage but will let you guys know more when I start.

Overall I think the package is very good value for money (6K) to get lifetime membership and one year trading support from the basics to becoming a profitable trader. As you all know Dan is an expert on income strategies so that is also a major bonus. Also Dan is very approachable and down to earth guy. I've spoken a couple of times to him on the phone already and I haven't even started my mentoring yet!

Well there you have it! That's my take on the stuff I've done out there. I may have missed a few things but if so I will got back and update. Please feel free to share your experiences about different trading education out there as well.

cheers,

Michael

[Whiskeywoman]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for this post. It's a great help and very thorough in the analysis.

I guess the obvious question is how well has all this helped you? Then, Are you learning the same things over and over again? Are you making money? Did you break even yet?

[Peter77]

Thanks Michael,

great information! I appreciate your willingness to share freely with us everything you have done to get where you are... I also admire your willingness to spend whatever money and time it takes to become successful! I salute you.

I can see that for me, working my way towards more Random Walk trading education would be a very good step...

Cheers!

[chinigun]

Hi Whiskeywoman (I prefer single malt aged at least 18 years by the way!!),

Well taking all the education has certainly helped me get to where I am which is trading full time on 300K plus account and now looking to start my own hedge fund (with private investor money here in Perth) at the age of 29.
I would have to say that what made me profitable wasn't directly the education though. By this I mean that it wasn't after a particular a seminar that turned me into a successful trader, more so it was when I approached trading from a probability standpoint and began to focus more on the income or long theta type strategies. This is something that Dan teaches in his course and is probably why he has such a high success rate with the students that do his course. I'm assuming this but it would be a safe assumption as you are able to see what makes money from other students and imitate the methods plus you get the year long mentoring and the lifetime access to the community and the support of Dan and the other mentors and students. With regards to the other education, Optionetics have never come out and said that this is how most professionals trade. In fact you have to ask the instructors or else they won't say anything about the way they trade at all. In this respects it's hard for a newbie to know what works and what doesn't. As for randomwalk (RWT), its fairly clear what strategies they advocate (collars, time spreads, bwb's). This really helps to know which strategies seem to have a higher probability of success. I was already mildly successful before doing any of the RWT stuff but taking their education took my trading knowledge and success to the next level.

I guess at the end of the day, its not really what education you take as it could be anything but the level of commitment one has to do what it takes to be a successful trader. Like Pete says, I will leave no stone unturned and will spend the money and the time to ensure that I have got the best education so that I know what I'm doing (remember only educated traders survive - else why set up forums like this). I have no doubts that successful trading is possible for anyone if they are willing to put the effort required of them. Actually by spending the money on the courses, I really forced myself to remain committed to what I was trying to do (ie hold myself accountable) and to know myself as someone that has had the best training and has given me a great deal of confidence that I know what I'm doing. It also didn't give me an excuse to quit. It's quite funny how that works. That's the power of context in life. (For example, if you didn't have much money but your parents were sick and lived overseas, you would find the money available to make that trip even if you didn't have it initially. Why? Because of just the way that you are being about it. ie there isn't a choice). By the way if any of you guys are interested in learning how to be more powerful in life I highly recommend doing the curriculum for living course with Landmark Education (www.landmarkeducation.com). That course also helps to complete issues with the past and you get to see why you do certain things and more importantly transform that! It's kind of the things that Mark Douglas writes about in Trading in the Zone but on a much more profound, powerful and effective level.

So to conclude the 2nd paragraph is really what it's all about. Rather its not the education but the commitment and desire to succeed. But somehow I think that a lot of you knew that already (else you wouldn't be in this forum)!

cheers,

Michael

ps - to answer the specific questions such as am I making money (yes). My return for the first 8 months of trading this year under the company I've formed is around 22%.

Did I learn the same things over and over? No not really. Everyone taught different stuff and methods (no surprises there). But interesting to see that Optionetics are now adopting a lot more of the RWT stuff (back to back calendars, big focus on BWB etc etc). Says something about the quality of RWT education I think.

Have I broken even yet? Yes I am glad to say that I've made back all of my trading education and then some!

[Mojo]

Welcome aboard and thanks for the great posts and sharing your experience!!

I *completely* agree with you about Landmark Education. Super powerful! Every single one of my trading buddies is a Landmark Curriculm Graduate.

All the best,

Mojo

[awtrader]

Hey Michael -

Thanks for the detailed post on options training. I'm not surprised you started with Optionetics since they promote themselves so aggressively, but I wonder how you chose the other two programs. Also did you look at others and reject them?

I only heard of Dan Sheridan based on comments here at InsaneMoney. Since then I've really enjoyed and learned a lot from his online videos at the CBOE. He does seem to be a little bit formulaic in his instruction, but makes it clear that is to instill discipline in the neophyte trader. And he warns they should take their time, a long time, with paper trading and low risk positions. Too bad I didn't learn that a month ago.

Good luck with his mentoring. Keep us posted.

-aw

[awtrader]

Speaking of Dan Sheridan, Dave B wrote last April about joining his mentoring program. As you can see he was quite enthusiastic...

I invested $6000 in Dan Sheridan's mentoring program. I am only 2 weeks in, I had to be interviewed by Dan, and I commit to working about 4 hours/day. The recorded and written material, as well as the trading groups are amazing. I trade a lot, but just these two weeks have really humbled me.

I wonder how it's going for him, assuming it is still ongoing?
Let us know Dave.

-aw

[chinigun]

Originally Posted by awtrader

Hey Michael -

Thanks for the detailed post on options training. I'm not surprised you started with Optionetics since they promote themselves so aggressively, but I wonder how you chose the other two programs. Also did you look at others and reject them?

-aw

Hi Aw,

I came across the other two (RWT and Options Uni) as recommendations from other trading buddies within a trading group that I was a part of, one of whom has gone on to become an optionetics instructor.
I'll let you in on another secret, I know that a fair few of the optionetic instructors (including former market makers have done education with RWT). So much so that some of them even promote it privately to students (there be may be some connection but I haven't figured out what yet - I wouldn't be surprised though seeing as the ex floor trader group is quite a close knit one).

As far as other education companies are concerned, I haven't really looked into doing any other programs with other companies although I have attended a complex strategies TOS seminar with Don Kaufman and that was excellent by the way. I think at this point in my training, I will be cutting down on any formal courses as I've got more than enough to go on (Sheridan mentoring, books) etc etc. Rather than learning more about option theory and fundamentals, which I think I have a good grounding in, it's more about learning the little known but practical techniques (as a matter of fact I had one of those "ah ha" moment's this week when I read about how to remove pin risk in a box spread) and getting inside the mindsets of other highly successful traders that intrigue me . This is the rounding out of my education and is why I joined the Sheridan Mentoring and also this forum. The opportunity to network and socialise with other traders to ensure that you are staying disciplined and as a devil's advocate for your trades is priceless for the longevity and survival of any trader I think. As a matter of fact, I was involved in a webex discussion last night with Dan Sheridan, his other mentors and 168 other Sheridan Mentoring Students about the current market volatility and how to survive it. It was a great discussion as Dan laid out some real problems with trading the markets as of right now (wide bid/ask spreads due to lack of liquidity caused by the heightened uncertainty/volatility) made worst by the fact that getting out of some positions are even more difficult due to the SEC short selling ban (it means it is harder for the floor traders to short stock to hedge certain positions like selling puts to the public as they cannot hedge effectively by buying the synthetic (short stock plus long call). Check out the skews between the calls and puts on a financial stock like GS and you will notice it. Dan mentioned that a lot of the guys on the floor are simply not trading now because their is just too much risk and uncertainty. This certainly gave me a jolt as I have a massive position on. It's a bit late now to unwind the position owing to the bid/ask spreads but at least I've stopped myself from adding to it.

Long winded answer as usual but I hope that answers your question.

cheers,

Michael

[Coyote]

Anybody gone through the new & "improved" Investools training yet?